Episode 620Julie Dunfey, Dust Bowl

>> ON SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 18, THE
DOCUMENTARY FILM THE DUST BOWL. PREMIERS ON PBS.
IT IS THE LATEST OFFERING FROM. FLORENTINE FILMS, KEN BURNS,
AND OUR GUEST JULIE DUNFEY. THANKS FOR BEING WITH US HERE
IN NEW MEXICO.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
HAVING ME. >> WHAT A FASCINATING TOPIC.
THIS IS AN AMAZING THING. BECAUSE WHEN ONE THINKS ABOUT
IT, WE THINK WE KNOW. EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW
ABOUT THE DUST BOWL.

WE LEARNED ABOUT IT IN SCHOOL,
IT HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF. OTHER DOCUMENTARIES OVER THE
YEARS. WHEN YOU GUYS SAT DOWN TO
THINK ABOUT THIS WITH. FLORENTINE, WHAT GRABBED YOU
ABOUT IT THAT SAID YOU COULD.

ADD SO MUCH MORE TO THE STORY?
>> I THINK A COUPLE OF THINGS. GRABBED US.
MY COPRODUCER, DAYTON DUNKEN, HE HAD WRITTEN A BOOK SEVERAL
YEARS AGO CALLED "MILES FROM. NOWHERE" ABOUT THE LEAST
POPULATED COUNTIES IN THE U.S. THE FRONTIER USED TO BE
DEFINED AS FEWER THAN TWO.

PEOPLE PER SQUARE MILE. AND
HE THROUGH SOME OF THE DUST. BOWL COUNTIES WHEN HE WAS
WRITING THAT BOOK AND MADE A. MENTAL NOTE TO SAY, HUH, MAYBE
YOU SHOULD MAKE A FILM ABOUT.

THIS, I THINK THERE IS
SOMETHING HERE, SOMETHING TO. UNDERSTAND.
AND I THINK WHAT DREW US TO. IT, A COUPLE OF THINGS.
WE THINK WE KNOW ABOUT IT, YOU. KNOW, WE GET A COUPLE OF
PARAGRAPHS, WE MOST OF US, MANY OF US, HAVE READ THE
"GRAPES OF WRATH." WE THINK WE KNOW ABOUT IT, BUT
DO WE KNOW THAT IT WAS -- IT.

IS ONE OF THE FOUR OR FIVE,
TOP FOUR OR FIVE BIGGEST. ENVIRONMENTAL CATASTROPHES IN
HUMAN HISTORY. IT IS CERTAINLY THE BIGGEST
ONE OR TWO IN NORTH AMERICAN. HISTORY.
AND WHEN YOU START LOOKING AT.

IT THAT WAY, YOU THINK, WOW,
DO WE REALLY KNOW ABOUT THIS. AND WE'RE ALSO DRAWN TO IT
BECAUSE WE REALIZED IF WE. WANTED TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHO
COULD TELL US WHAT IT WAS LIKE. TO LIVE THROUGH IT, WE WERE
RUNNING OUT OF TIME QUICKLY.

THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE 1930'S
AND FLORENTINE FILMS FINISHED. A SHOW ABOUT WORLD WAR II IN
WHICH VETERANS DIEING. EVERYDAY.
THIS IS 10 YEARS EARLIER. SO, THERE WERE A NUMBER OF
THINGS, BOTH TRYING TO GRASP.

THE MAGNITUDE OF THE
ENVIRONMENTAL CATASTROPHE THAT. TOOK PLACE BUT ALSO THE HUMAN
DIMENSION. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE LIVES AND
FAMILIES WHO LIVED HERE, WHO. HAD COME OUT TO HOMESTEAD AND
FARM? WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR THEM?
>> REALLY STRUCK ME WATCHING.

SOME OF THOSE FOLKS YOU DO
FEATURE ON THE FILM, THAT IT. WAS STILL SO VISCERAL FOR
THEM, EVEN NOW, AT THE EDGE OF. TEARS, THINKING ABOUT SIBLINGS
THAT HAD BEEN LOST DURING THAT. TIME, PARENTS THAT HAD BEEN
LOST, SEPARATION OF FAMILIES.

WHERE PARENTS HAD TO MAKE A
BRUTAL DECISION TO SEND THEIR. CHILDREN ELSEWHERE TO LIVE
WITH OTHER RELATIVES OUT OF. STATE, OUT OF THE PANHANDLE
AREA. JUST A VERY TOUGH THING TO DO.
WHEN YOU SAT DOWN WITH SOME OF.

THESE FOLKS, WHAT WERE SOME OF
THE SURPRISES? WERE THEY SO OPEN AND READY TO
TALK ABOUT THIS YOU CAUGHT. THEM AT THE RIGHT TIME?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WE DID. CATCH PEOPLE AT THE RIGHT
TIME. OUR ASSOCIATE PRODUCER, SUSAN
SHOEMAKER, AND MYSELF, WHEN WE.

FINISHED MAKING NATIONAL PARKS
WE THOUGHT MAYBE WE WERE TOO. LATE, WE REALLY DID, AND OUR
FIRST MOVE WAS TO SAY, GO DOWN. THERE AND SEE IF YOU CAN FIND
THE FOLKS. ARE THERE PEOPLE STILL ALIVE
WHO CAN TELL THEIR STORIES? WE MADE FOUR TRIPS TO WHAT WE
CONSIDER THE HEART OF THE DUST.

BOWL, AND WHAT THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME. CONSIDERED THE HEART OF THE
DUST BOWL, WHICH WAS NO MANS. LAND, OKLAHOMA PANHANDLE,
TEXAS PANHANDLE AND WHERE IT. BUMPS UP AGAINST NEW MEXICO,
COLORADO AND KANSAS.

AND WE DID, AS I SAID, FOUR
SEPARATE TRIPS AND WE PUT OUT. A CALL, BASICALLY TO PEOPLE.
WE ASKED LOCAL PBS STATIONS TO. PUT A LITTLE PITCH AND SAY
SEND YOUR STORIES, PHOTOS, SUSAN MADE A POSTER BASED ON
THE UNCLE SAM POSTERS, SAYING. "KEN BURNS NEEDS YOU, SEND
STORIES." AND SUSAN AND I PUT THE WORD
OUT TO NURSING HOMES, HISTORICAL SOCIETIES, THAT WE
WOULD BE IN SUCH AND SUCH A.

PLACE, YOU KNOW, IN SUCH A
CHURCH BASEMENT ON THIS DAY. AND PLEASE COME WITH YOUR
PHOTOS, YOUR STORIES. THE RESPONSE WAS REMARKABLE.
PEOPLE WOULD SHOW UP. WE WOULD HAVE A ROUNDTABLE
DISCUSSION AND THEY WOULD ALL.

BE TALKING TO EACH OTHER AS
WELL. AND I THINK FOR A LOT OF
THESE, OFTEN ADULT CHILDREN, AND FOR A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE
THEY HADN'T TOLD THEIR STORY. IT WAS A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT
TIME AND SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT. PEOPLE WOULDN'T BELIEVE THEM.
YOU GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE, YOU.

KNOW.
WHEN SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS. PASSED, YOU MOVE ON AND DAILY
LIFE TAKES OVER AND THE ADULT. CHILDREN WOULD OFTEN SAY, I
NEVER HEARD THAT STORY. AND, I UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT
BETTER NOW.

AND KEN LIKES TO CHARACTERIZE
WHAT WE DO AS EMOTIONAL. ARCHEOLOGY AND I THINK PEOPLE
WERE VERY WILLING TO OPEN UP. AND ONCE THEY UNDERSTOOD WE
THOUGHT THIS WAS VERY. IMPORTANT, THAT THEY WERE
HAPPY TO SHARE THE STORY AND.

THERE WERE DIFFICULT MOMENTS
UP. YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE LOSING
SIBLINGS AND, OF COURSE, BECAUSE WE HAD PREINTERVIEWED
PEOPLE, WE OFTEN KNEW THE. STORY.
WE WOULD SAY, AS WE WENT TO. FILM, WE KNOW THAT THERE IS
GOING TO BE A DIFFICULT.

MOMENT, BUT IT IS A WAY YOU
CAN HELP OTHER PEOPLE. UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS TIME WAS
LIKE. WE'RE HERE TO LISTEN TO IT AND
OTHER PEOPLE, IT WILL HELP. THEM LEARN AND SO THAT WAS A
WAY OF GETTING OVER THOSE KIND.

OF HURDLES.
>> I CAN APPRECIATE THAT A LOT. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IN
CONTEXT THAT IT LASTED 10 YEARS.
I THINK THAT IS A SURPRISE FOR. MOST PEOPLE.
YOU CAN HEAR THAT, BUT THEN. WHEN YOU TRY TO LIVE IT IN
YOUR MIND SO TO SPEAK, 10 SOLID YEARS OF AN INCREDIBLY
DIFFICULT DAY-TO-DAY, HOUR-TO-HOUR EXISTENCE, IT HAD
TO BE INCREDIBLY EXHAUSTING.

FOR PEOPLE AT SOME LEVEL.
>> I THINK SO. SOUTHERN PLAINS PEOPLE ARE
KNOWN AS NEXT YEAR PEOPLE. THEY UNDERSTOOD THERE IS NOT
ALWAYS RAIN HERE BUT YOU JUST. THINK, WELL, OKAY, BAD YEAR,
NEXT YEAR IT WILL BE BETTER.

THEY ARE NEXT YEAR PEOPLE AND
FOR YEAR AFTER YEAR FOR THIS. TO GO ON, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE
BATTLING AGAINST HOPE ALL THE. TIME, YOU THINK, OKAY IT WILL
BE BETTER AND THEN IT GETS. WORSE.
IT GETS WORSE AND WORSE AND.

WORSE.
AND THEN YOU HAVE THE HARDSHIP. OF THE GREAT DEPRESSION
OVERLAYING THE WHOLE THING. >> RIGHT.
AMAZING. YOU KNOW, I AM INTERESTED IN
THE FIRST PART OF THE FILM.

WHEN THE WONDERFUL NARRATOR,
COYOTE, MENTIONS IN DUNCAN'S. WRITING, THAT ACTUALLY IT IS
ONE OF THE BIGGEST MANMADE. DISASTERS.
40 OR 50 YEARS WORTH OF BAD. DECISIONS, I THINK THE WORDS
WERE.

WHAT WERE THOSE BAD DECISIONS?
WHAT HAPPENED THAT LED UP TO. THE DUST BOWL?
FOR A LOT OF US GROWING UP, WE. THOUGHT IT WAS PART OF THE
NATURAL EVOLUTION OF THE. WEATHER THAT JUST CAUSED THIS
THING.

>> YEAH.
WELL, WHAT HAPPENED, YOU KNOW, THERE HAD BEEN SOME
HOMESTEADING ON THE SOUTHERN. PLAINS IN THE 1890'S.
A DROUGHT HIT IN THE 1890'S. THIS IS A REGION THAT HAS
EXTREME WEATHER AND HIGH. WINDS.
AND, THE REGION WAS CLEARED.

OUT FROM THE LITTLE SETTLEMENT
IT HAD IN THE 1890'S BUT THE. HOMESTEAD ACT WAS ENLARGED BY
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN THE. BEGINNING YEARS OF THE 20TH
CENTURY AND THESE WERE REALLY. THE LAST PUBLIC LANDS
AVAILABLE TO FOLKS.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE RAILROAD
WAS PROMOTING IT, THE FEDERAL. GOVERNMENT WAS PROMOTING IT.
FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT CAME. TO SETTLE THE REGION, WHETHER
IT WAS SCOTTS IRISH FROM THE. OLD CONFEDERACY, LATINOS WHO
CAME UP, THIS WAS THE FIRST.

TIME IN A LOT OF THEIR
FAMILIES' HISTORY WHERE THEY. HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO OWN A
PIECE OF LAND. AND THERE WAS A WET CYCLE THAT
WAS TAKING PLACE DURING 1910'S. AND 20'S.
A BUNCH OF FACTORS CAME.

TOGETHER.
YOU HAD GOVERNMENT ENCOURAGING. SETTLEMENT OF THE LAND.
YOU HAD A WET CYCLE WHICH MADE. WHEAT VERY PROSPEROUS, EASY.
IT IS WINTER WHEAT. YOU PUT IT IN THE GROUND, YOU
GO THROUGH THE WINTER, YOU.

HAVE A CROP IN THE SPRING.
THAT ENCOURAGED A LOT OF WHAT. WAS CALLED SUITCASE FARMERS.
YOU KNOW, HOLLYWOOD PRODUCERS. COME AND BUY UP LAND, BOOM YOU
HAD A CROP, YOU COULD MAKE A. LOT OF MONEY.
WORLD WAR I CAME ALONG AND.

GERMANY CUT OFF ACCESS TO
RUSSIAN WHEAT. SO, AGAIN, GOVERNMENT SET $2 A
BARREL TO ENCOURAGE FARMERS TO. HELP FEED THE ALLIES.
>> WHICH WAS A GOOD PRICE AT. THAT TIME.
>> A TERRIFIC PRICE.

SO, THERE WAS THIS MAD RUSH.
YOU COULD MAKE A LOT OF MONEY, THERE WAS THIS MAD RUSH TO GET
THIS LAND. 100 MILLION ACRES PLOWED UP
AND PUT INTO WHEAT PRODUCTION. THE OTHER FACTOR THAT ENTERED
INTO IT, YOU HAD GASOLINE. TRACTORS.
YOU COULD NEVER HAVE PLOWED UP.

THAT MANY ACRES WITH JUST A
HORSE AND PLOW. YOU HAD GASOLINE TRACTORS
RUNNING ALL NIGHT LONG AND. THERE WAS AN ERA WHEN
AGRICULTURE WAS BECOMING. INDUSTRIAL.
SO ALL THIS LAND WAS PLOWED.

UP.
EVEN AFTER THE WAR ENDED AND. PRICES DROPPED, YOU COULD
STILL MAKE MONEY AT IT. THEY STILL HAD ENOUGH MOISTURE
DURING THAT YEAR, ENOUGH. PRECIPITATION DURING THE 20'S.
THE DEPRESSION HIT.

FIRST IT WAS JUST KIND OF A
THING THAT WAS HAPPENING BACK. EAST, HIT THE FINANCIAL
MARKETS AND ACTUALLY IN 1930 AND '31, THEY HAD A BUMPER
CROP ON THE SOUTHERN PLAINS. BUT THEN THE DROUGHT HIT AND
COMMODITY PRICES COLLAPSED. IT WAS AN AGRICULTURAL CRISIS
BROUGHT ON BY THE GREAT.

DEPRESSION.
YOU HAD SO MANY FACTORS. FEEDING INTO IT.
WE DIDN'T SET OUT TO SAY LET'S. RUIN THE ECOSYSTEM.
IT IS HUMAN NATURE, PEOPLE. WANT TO MAKE A LIFE FOR
FAMILIES, THEY HAD THIS.

OPPORTUNITY, GOVERNMENT WAS
ENCOURAGING, THERE WAS A WET. CYCLE, THERE WAS A WAR.
THERE WERE ALL THESE THINGS. CAME TOGETHER AND WHAT
HAPPENED WHEN THE DROUGHT HIT. AND THE COMMODITIES MARKET
COLLAPSED, IS A LOT OF THE.

SUITCASE FARMERS JUST LEFT.
THEY ABANDONED THEIR FIELDS. AND THOSE FIELDS WHICH HAD
BEEN HELD DOWN FOR THOUSANDS. OF YEARS BY NATIVE BUFFALO
GRASS, NOW THIS IS A REGION. THAT HAD BEEN INHABITED BY
MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF.

BUFFALO.
AND THE BUFFALO GRASS WENT. DOWN SEVERAL FEET AND HELD THE
SOIL DOWN. IT HAD EVOLVED TO ADAPT TO
THAT CLIMATE. AND SO ALL THAT GRASS WAS
PLOWED UP.

PLOWED UNDER AND PLOW UP.
WHEN THE PERIODIC WINDS THAT. WE GET, ESPECIALLY IN THE
SPRING, STARTED TO BLOW AND. THOSE FIELDS WERE LEFT WIDE
OPEN -- >> IN YOUR MIND, ARE THERE
PARALLELS TO TODAY IN HOW WE. ARE STEWARDS OF THE LAND?
WE HEAR PEOPLE TALK ABOUT.

BEING STEWARD OF THE LAND.
THE SCIENCE OF ROTATING FIELDS. AND CROPS HAS COME A LONG WAY,
BUT ARE WE STILL IN SOMEWHAT. OF A SIMILAR DILEMMA, WE SEE
AN OPPORTUNITY, FOLKS WANT TO. MAKE A LIVING FOR THEMSELVES?
DID YOU COME ACROSS A.

CONCLUSION ON THAT?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, ECCLESIASTICALLY, THERE IS
NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. ON THE ONE HAND THE SETTLEMENT
OF THE SOUTHERN PLAINS WAS A. CLASSIC AMERICAN BOOM.
YOU KNOW, REAL ESTATE PRICES. WENT SKY HIGH, PEOPLE WERE
BUYING UP LAND WITHOUT EVEN.

LOOKING AT IT.
SETTLEMENT OF BOYD CITY WAS. ONE OF THE FEW TIMES IN
AMERICAN HISTORY WHERE PEOPLE. WENT TO JAIL FOR REAL ESTATE
FRAUD. THEY ADVERTISED IT AS HAVING
STATELY ELMS AND MAPLES, ARTESIAN WELLS.
THIS WAS THE PANHANDLE.

THERE WAS NO SUCH THING THERE.
>> THAT WAS IN KANSAS? >> OKLAHOMA.
YEAH, BOYD CITY OKLAHOMA. SO, CLASSICAL AMERICAN REAL
ESTATE BOOM. AND THEN OF COURSE THE WHEAT
BOOM. WE HAVE SEEN THAT IN THE LAST
10 YEARS, WE HAVE HAD A REAL.

ESTATE BOOM.
SO, I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF. PARALLELS OR A LOT OF LESSONS.
YOU KNOW. THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE
SUN AND IT IS JUST INTERESTING. TO EXAMINE IN LIGHT OF WHERE
WE ARE TODAY.

>> WHAT DID YOU DISCOVER ABOUT
NEW MEXICO SPECIFICALLY? WAS THERE A DIFFERENT WAY WE
HANDLED IT HERE, A DIFFERENT. WAY THE EFFECTS IT HAD ON US
HERE VERSUS OTHER PLACES OR. GENERALLY THE SAME AS WHAT YOU
FOUND IN THE OTHER PANHANDLE? >> THAT REGION DOWN WHERE THE
STATES MEET WAS PRETTY MUCH. THE SAME EXPERIENCE.
YOU CAN CROSS STATE LINES VERY.

EASILY.
IT IS LITTLE BIT LIKE BEING IN. SOME OF THE SMALLER STATES AND
I THINK IT FELT LIKE MORE OF A. REGION AS OPPOSED TO A
DIFFERENT STATE. IN TERMS OF MAKING THE FILM WE
HAD WONDERFUL RESOURCES IN NEW.

MEXICO.
WHEN WE MADE THE NATIONAL. PARKS, WE PUT OUT A NATIONWIDE
CALL FOR PEOPLE TO SEND IN. THEIR HOME MOVIES.
WE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE THAT. ADVANTAGE HERE.
IT WAS 1930'S, POOR REGION, THE DEPRESSION, PEOPLE DIDN'T
HAVE CAMERAS.

I MEAN THEY HAD CAMERAS, THEY
DIDN'T HAVE MOVIE CAMERAS, WEREN'T TAKING A LOT OF HOME
MOVIES. I GOT A MESSAGE THAT SOMEBODY
THOUGHT THEY KNEW ABOUT. SOMEBODY WHO HAD HOME MOVIES
AND BY THE TIME WE TRACKED IT. DOWN, IT TOOK SEVERAL MONTHS,
IT TURNS ON THE HERSTEIN.

FAMILY COLLECTION WAS AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO AND I. WAS ABLE TO DIG OUT THE
ORIGINAL FILM. THESE ARE FAMILY HOME MOVIES
AND SOMEBODY IN THAT FAMILY. HAD A TERRIFIC EYE AND
CAPTURED SOME REMARKABLE.

FOOTAGE OF A DUST STORM WHICH
ACTUALLY OPENS EPISODE TWO. IT IS JUST TERRIFIC FOOTAGE.
SO, YOU KNOW WE HAVE HAD A. COUPLE OF GEMS LIKE THAT FROM
NEW MEXICO. AND SOME OF OUR SURVIVORS OF
COURSE ARE FROM THAT PART OF.

THE STATE AND TELL THEIR
STORIES ON CAMERA FOR US. >> IRONICALLY, A VERY
TECHNICAL WAY OF LOOKING AT. THINGS, IT REALLY HIT ME
WATCHING ON A LARGE SCREEN, FLAT SCREEN TELEVISION IN
BLACK BLIZZARD. IT IS ALMOST LIKE IT COMES OUT
OF THE TELEVISION INTO YOUR.

LIVING ROOM.
IT CAN BE FRIGHTENING, SOME OF. THE FOOTAGE YOU SEE IN THE
DOCUMENTARY. IT WAS INCREDIBLE.
>> WHEN YOU HEAR PEOPLE. DESCRIBE IT, IT WOULD BE STILL
AS CAN BE, COULDN'T EVEN HEAR.

THE BIRDS AND ALL OF A SUDDEN
YOU SEE THIS THING ROLLING. TOWARD YOU.
SOMETIMES IT WAS BLACK, SOMETIMES IT WAS RED DEPENDING
WHERE IT WAS COMING FROM, WHICH STATE.
AND THEN BOOM, IT WOULD HIT. AND IT WOULD BE LIKE A NOISE
OF A FREIGHT TRAIN, THE. LOUDEST NOISE YOU HAD EVER
HEARD AND REMARKABLY.

FRIGHTENING AND THE PHRASE WE
HEARD OVER AND OVER IN. INTERVIEWS, "I THOUGHT IT WAS
THE END OF THE WORLD." YOU PARTICULARLY, IF THE
ADULTS TOLD THE CHILDREN IT. WAS END OF THE WORLD, THEY
BELIEVED THEM. WHY WOULDN'T YOU BELIEVE
GRANDMA.

>> CONGRATULATIONS, YOU HAVE A
DREAMED CAREER, A LOT OF. WONDERFUL INTERESTING EMMY
AWARD WINNING PROJECTS AND. THIS LAST ONE, I THINK YOU AND
YOUR COLLEAGUES HAVE DONE THIS. COUNTRY A GREAT FAVOR BY
ILLUMINATING SOMETHING LITTLE.

UNDERSTOOD.
WE KNEW ABOUT IT BUT ANYBODY. WATCHING THIS, YOU'LL KNOW A
WHOLE LOT MORE AFTERWARD. IT WAS A WONDERFUL FILM TO
MAKE. >> DUST BOWL BEGINS SUNDAY AT
7:00 ON NEW MEXICO PBS.

JULIE DUNFEY, A PLEASURE,
THANK YOU. >> WE'RE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH A
LOOK AT THE SAGA OF STATEHOOD. DAVID HOLTBY, AUTHOR OF THE
47TH STAR, IS IN TO TALK ABOUT. NEW MEXICO'S ENTRY TO THE
UNION.

I AM GENE GRANT.
SEE  YOU THEN, IN FOCUS..